10 posts :: Page 1 of 1
By: Likes:
  (Read 7811 times)  

From my understanding Aerobic training is 20-40 mins plus of a lower heart rate . ( running , skating)continuously.

Anaerobic (Lactic & Lactic) are training intervals( 5-10 sec. & 25-60 sec) with a much higher percentage of maximum heart rate.Approx.

So , What is the proper training system for on ice training or practice's ?

What system is BAG skating training ? Any positive effects of bag skating scientifically ?

If most drills- games fall into the Anaerobic system , why do coaches allow players in a game to stay on the ice 1-2 mins.?
How is this affecting players performance from the beginning of the game and the end of the game ?
How often do you see young players stay on the ice for long periods of time early in a game ? What is the affect will this have on a player.?

Tom , Dean , Kai , Dave I'm sure could give you the scientific effect this will have when lactic acid builds up in the legs if these long shifts persist early in a game ?

Coaches yell at their players to skate hard , but when they have been on the ice for over one min. how is this possible ?
Any comments or up to date information on training these systems for better performance in a game ?

RK

By: Likes:
   

RK,

You have asked a lot of questions. Thanks for challenging my memory bank... I haven't spent near as much time with my Ex Phys research as I should lately... going to redesign my training program over Christmas! Still thinking about doing some ridiculously long rides in the future!

I will try to answer all of them... some will be answered by the abstract below (1, 2, 3 and 5).


Quote by: RK

1) From my understanding Aerobic training is 20-40 mins plus of a lower heart rate . ( running , skating)continuously.

2) Anaerobic (Alactic & Lactic) are training intervals( 5-10 sec. & 25-60 sec) with a much higher percentage of maximum heart rate.Approx.

3) So , What is the proper training system for on ice training or practice's ?

Do an internet search for Lactate Threshold testing and training. This is much more accurate than just MAX HR (220-age plus a correction factor for gender / weight) for an individual. This will tell you where you need to be in regards to time, intensity and recovery.

Sports Med. 1988 Feb;5(2):99-126.
Physiology of ice hockey.
Montgomery DL.
Source

Department of Physical Education, McGill University, Montreal.
Abstract

Ice hockey is characterized by high intensity intermittent skating, rapid changes in velocity and duration, and frequent body contact. The typical player performs for 15 to 20 minutes of a 60-minute game. Each shift lasts from 30 to 80 seconds with 4 to 5 minutes of recovery between shifts. The intensity and duration of a particular shift determines the extent of the contribution from aerobic and anaerobic energy systems. The high intensity bursts require the hockey player to develop muscle strength, power, and anaerobic endurance. The length of the game and the need to recover quickly from each shift demands a good aerobic system. Physical characteristics of elite players show that defensemen are taller and heavier than forwards probably due to positional demands. Hockey players are mesomorphic in structure. They are relatively lean since excess mass is detrimental to their skating performance. There is a large interindividual variability in VO2 during skating. Both the aerobic and anaerobic energy systems are important during a hockey game. Peak heart rates during a shift on the ice exceed 90% of HRmax with average on-ice values of about 85% of HRmax. Blood lactate is elevated above resting values confirming the anaerobic nature of the game. Glycogen depletion studies show a preferential utilisation of glycogen from the slow twitch fibres but also significant depletion from the fast twitch fibres. Elite hockey players display a muscle fibre composition similar to untrained individuals. Physiological profiles of elite hockey teams reveal the importance of aerobic endurance, anaerobic power and endurance, muscular strength and skating speed. Training studies have attempted to improve specific components of hockey fitness. Using traditional laboratory tests, a season of hockey play shows gains in anaerobic endurance but no change in aerobic endurance. On-ice tests of hockey fitness have been recommended as an essential part of the hockey player's physiological profile. Existing training procedures may develop chronic muscular fatigue in hockey players. Lactic acidosis is associated with the onset and persistence of muscle fatigue. Muscle force output remains impaired throughout the hockey player's typical cycle of practices and games. A supplementary programme of low-intensity cycling during the competitive phase of training was unsuccessful in altering VO2max. Strength decrements during the hockey season are attributed to a lack of a specifically designed strength maintenance programmes. On-ice and off-ice training programmes should focus on the elevation of aerobic endurance, anaerobic power and endurance, muscular strength and skating speed.


4) What system is BAG skating training ? Any positive effects of bag skating scientifically ?

Scientific answer: Depends on the length of work interval (and intensity) and rest interval (and intensity). You need to review the Energy Systems and follow the Oxidative System into the Kreb's Cycle... sounds fun, right? (Only if you suffer from insomnia!)

As to the positive scientific effects of a Bag Skate: odds are, this won't happen as the 'old-school' coach is so pissed... and I am betting he doesn't have a clue about Energy Systems... he just wants to hurt you! Training accelerates lactate clearance, reduces lactate accumulation at any given workload and results in a greater level of lactate accumulation during maximal effort... kind of a long-winded way to say "improved tolerance!"

Interesting side note: Masochistic swimmers and cyclists (among others) have been known to punish themselves deliberately to increase their lactate tolerance to help them perform in their particular events... I believe it was Mark Tewksbury (Canada) in the early 1990's while training at the U of Calgary prior to winning Gold in Barcelona in 1992, who could 'easily' tolerate blood lactate levels in excess of 30+ mmols! (Point of reference: most elite swimmers produce 12+ mmols before quitting... for untrained, sedentary people, they would most likely be quitting (puking, etc.) at 6 mmols!)

Anecdotal answer: It's principle purpose is to act as a physical and mental punishment for under-performance or disobedience. It is supposed to hurt; so repetitive "Special High Intensity Training" (S.H.I.T.!) sprints longer than 12 seconds with very short, static rest protocols do the trick! Lactate accumulation (not necessarily an increase in production), causes an increased concentration of hydrogen ions and corresponding acidosis. (Lactate production may actually help to curb the development of acidosis.) Acidosis is thought to be a primary factor in muscular fatigue and is based on a good deal of research. However, there is some recent research is contesting this claim but it is still too early to dismiss acidity as a cause of fatigue.

Anecdotally speaking, bag skates primarily have a punitive intent and are designed by coaches with no clue about energy systems. At best, one could start to learn how it feels to work outside their comfort zone (if they collapse and puke!) so it is more of a mental gain... but a painful one.


5) If most drills- games fall into the Anaerobic system , why do coaches allow players in a game to stay on the ice 1-2 mins.?

What age and level of play, and how well-conditioned is the athlete? What situations are they out there for? Are there lots of whistles? Is it running time? Is the player managing his energy levels appropriately? To truthfully answer this question, you would have to ask the coach: Is this intentional or is the player over-staying his shift?


How is this affecting players performance from the beginning of the game and the end of the game ?

Same questions as above... Depends on which energy system they are using during this time period; then you need to know how much time at what intensity, during the game. What is their condition? If they aren't well-conditioned and they are working as hard as they can, their performance will obviously drop while on-ice; they will need to manage their recovery properly (enough time, manage their heart rate). As a rule of thumb, if you are well-conditioned aerobically, you can recover quicker and experience less of a loss in performance throughout the game. Strong aerobic conditioning helps deal with travel, back-to-back games, etc.


How often do you see young players stay on the ice for long periods of time early in a game ? What is the affect will this have on a player.?

Many times I see the first few shifts as 'longer' than normal. This is normal; kids are excited to PLAY (not 'practice meaningless drills!' Oops did I say that or think it?) What is their condition? Over time, their overall shift length times will drop; as will their effective time on ice.

Tom , Dean , Kai , Dave I'm sure could give you the scientific effect this will have when lactic acid builds up in the legs if these long shifts persist early in a game ?

Since hockey depends on static recovery (standing or sitting on a bench), this is exactly the opposite way to effectively deal with this acidosis and excess hydrogen ions. We should be spinning on a bike / running on a treadmill within about 65-81% of your Lactate Threshold (LT) HR between shifts to speed recovery, if memory serves me correctly! "Active Recovery."

A guy at (I think) at UWO created special pedals for stationary bikes. They allowed for skate blades to 'clip in' and the players could ride on the bench. Not many benches have room for this - and you couldn't get enough bikes on the benches to be effective (and still move around); plus you are generating additional heat under all the pads... = hydration issues... not to mention feeling bulky... and the weak acceptance of the hockey culture to do anything other than stand or sit between shifts (powerful tradition / culture of stupidity..."because that's how we have always done it!)


(SEE ABOVE ABSTRACT)

6) Coaches yell at their players to skate hard , but when they have been on the ice for over one min. how is this possible ?

Coaches can yell no matter how long or short a player has been on the ice! Oops... that is me being a smart ass! STUPID COACHES - SHUT THE F&$% UP AND LET THE GAME TEACH THE GAME! LET THE PLAYERS PLAY AND LEARN FROM THEIR MISTAKES! QUIT BEING AN EXPLICIT DICTATOR COACH...!!!

OK CRUSADER DEAN IS GONE...If they have been managing their energy systems (primarily aerobic), they will have the ability to find and extra gear. I used to love playing D as I could manage my energy better than as an F - play longer effective shifts while managing my energy. Again, how 'fresh' is the player and what is their fitness level?

If they are racing to a loose puck on offense for a potential breakaway in a tie game in game 7 of the Stanley cup final, one has to keep in mind the power of motivation... you can always dig a little deeper and surprise yourself! (Now if it's backchecking in a beer league game, and there is no hope of catching the guy... it's time for a line change! See the difference in motivation?)

As a competitive cyclist, I used to play these mental tricks on myself all the time under conditions of great physical distress. If I found the right buttons to push, I could get a little extra wattage out of the legs!


7) Any comments or up to date information on training these systems for better performance in a game ?

Ah don't get me started. I gotta go to bed soon... if I can think of some resources, I will post them. See the last sentence of the abstract. Any good, recent exercise physiology text should do nicely. Check with Human Kinetics - they are offering 20% off until Dec 20 or something - they are in Windsor... that's your province!

RK


Dean
M.Ed (Coaching)
Ch.P.C. (Chartered Professional Coach)
Game Intelligence Training

"Great education depends on great teaching."

   
Active Member
Registered: 08/05/09
Posts: 2063
Location: Calgary AB Canada
By: Likes:
   

RK - This is an older resource, but you might want to at least scan through Jack Blatherwick's Overspeed book. It's available on-line for free through the Burnsville, MN hockey program website here:
http://burnsvillehockey.com/DevOverspeed.html
There are sections of the book that breakdown energy systems into terms that even I can understand. I'm sure there are more current resources available, but it's hard to find anything more thorough and readable.

Hope this helps,
Dave

   
Regular Member
Registered: 08/24/09
Posts: 79
By: Likes:
   

DaveM - good advice. Jack's book is written with the hockey coach in mind. More condusive than a Ex. Phys. text!

Also try "Complete Conditioning for Hockey" by Peter Twist (former strength coach for the Canucks). It is a Human Kinetics book and comes with a DVD> I have it but truthfully, have never watched the DVD or looked into this book very much... it was given to me.


Dean
M.Ed (Coaching)
Ch.P.C. (Chartered Professional Coach)
Game Intelligence Training

"Great education depends on great teaching."

   
Active Member
Registered: 08/05/09
Posts: 2063
Location: Calgary AB Canada
By: Likes:
   

DaveM - Thanks for the link. Great info for coaches to read. Thank again.

Dean, I"m amazed at the knowledge you have on every aspect of th sport of hockey. Great stuff s usual !! Thanks.

If coaches can gain some knowledge in this area , it would help them understand practice's and game situations and how they work together.

Most coaches when they bag skate younger players are usually yelling at them to skate harder .
Coaches , What are we training them for with bag skates ? Conditioning ? Coaches satisfaction ?

Extended bag skates at the beginning of practice's only sets the players up for poor mechanic's and hinders their skill for the remainder of the drills and games.
Also most drills and games last between 15 - 45 secs.Approx. We want are players to work hard. But we get in a game situation and player stay out on the ice for over 1- 2 mins.
Unfortunately coaches get pressure to win at all costs. They are judged on their success with WINS and LOSSES.

If all coaches have a brief understanding of the energy systems , it will help with the performance of their players.It might also help with preparing for practice's.

Thanks again Dean and DaveM.

RK

By: Likes:
   

Thanks RK! 'Twas nuttin'!

I agree with your comment regarding the need for every coach to have a rudimentary understanding of energy systems and how / when to train / maintain them.

Bag skates should be outlawed. They serve no physiological purpose - just an example of a frustrated, uneducated coach bullying his players... because he doesn't know 'how' to coach them properly! Dummies...

If more coaches played my Smart Transitional Games (etc.), they would find that conditioning is built in (disguised) and the kids play hard and smart, bust their a$$e$ and develop positive game habits. No need to bag skate.

If I wanted to 'mentally and physically challenge' my players - but not because they played bad - I would invoke the "Punisher Rule of Engagement"... then they would understand how to elevate their comfort zones!

The "Punisher" 1 v 1 - you can't leave the game until you score. If you get scored on, you face a fresh opponent. People have been known to quit and leave the ice surface on this one... only for older kids who understand the reasons behind it... and you need to build up your level of trust / respect and have outstanding communication with the kids. I would only do it once / month at most; this is after I have had the kids for a year or so.

It is based on Tarasov's alleged training of Valeri Kharlamov. The story says that Tarasov saw something special in Kharlemov. Becasue he was so good 1 v 1, Tarasov told Kharlemov he had to go away (to Siberia?) for a year and train 1 v multiple opponents until he mastered the 1 v 5; at which time he could return and resume training with the team! So a 1 v 1 drill for anyone else became a 1 v 2 drill for Kharlemov... then a 1 v 3; 1 v 4; 1 v 5! He trained for a year, then came back.

I have done something similar for a midget aged player who was really good. Last year, after I saw how good he was, I sometimes had him play 1 v 2 when others played 1 v 1. He still did pretty well. He had the right mental make-up - he loved a challenge. A Latvian, he is re-habbing from shoulder and knee surgery; otherwise he would be playing in the World Championships in Calgary this year.

Coaches should be judged on how well they develop PEOPLE - not just their skills - and the Win / Loss column should be the last thing anyone looks at. I might start another thread discussion on Positive Coaching. Thanks for firing me up RK!


Dean
M.Ed (Coaching)
Ch.P.C. (Chartered Professional Coach)
Game Intelligence Training

"Great education depends on great teaching."

   
Active Member
Registered: 08/05/09
Posts: 2063
Location: Calgary AB Canada
By: Likes:
   

Why aerobic?
  • Aerobic base condition = Is the foundation for everything
  • be able to play
  • be able to train
  • you recover from games and practices
  • nutrients, oxygen, (hormones) go at the destination
  • lactic acid, carbon dioxide...departs
How much and how?
  • 3-5 h/week
  • hr 120-150
  • it doesn?t need to be jogging or biking -it can be skill, agility, muscle endurance, functional training with short recovery breaks
Dashes and other speed practices
  • Hockey is a sport that requires speed
How much and how to...?
  • 2 times in week
  • concentrate and do 100%
  • short dashes ( 10 - 40 meters)
  • recovery (2-3min)

Speed endurance
Why?
  • in hockey have to be able to do meny repetitions at high effectiveness
  • need to tolerate lactic acid
how much and how?
  • at summer maximium of once in a week
  • lactic acid can prevent the development of other attributes
  • training in games for juniors before puberty
  • hard "vomit practices" only for adult athletes
source: Harri Hakkarainen MD, MSc ( Sport Science ) lectures from FIHA coaching clinics

Aerobic and anaerobic training in our practices. One practice consists;

  1. warm up, aerobic (at least 15 min)
  2. off-ice training, mainly anaerobic alactic.
  3. on-ice training, anaerobic
  4. off-ice training (not in every practice) anaerobic alactic. but can be aerobic
  5. cool down, aerobic (at least 15min)


Kai

   
Active Member
Registered: 06/10/09
Posts: 159
Location: Finland
By: Likes:
   

Child's body is not ready to produce large amounts of lactic acid. And he/she is unable to effectively buffer and dispose lactic acid. So you should not do anaerobic lactic training. Even with teens, normal sports specific training on-ice should be enough.What is better practice for this than full ice transition game?

Off-ice we do 20-30 meter dashes. for example 2x4x20 meters with 30 second recovery between dashes and 2-3 minutes recovery between the two series.
This way we work the two first energy suorces that muscles uses ATP (adenosine triphosphate) and PCr (creatine phosphate). ATP lasts 2-4 seconds and PCr 7-10 seconds and the recovery times are; ATP 1-3 minutes PCr 2-5 minutes.


Kai

   
Active Member
Registered: 06/10/09
Posts: 159
Location: Finland
By: Likes:
   

Good posting Kai. The thing to remember is that children are not little adults but are Developing their heart and lungs as well as having disproportionate growth in their limbs. Hard training can do permanent damage.

Sometimes training them too intensely in practice results in them being over trained and tired during games.

I like to keep the practice flowing and use a variety of games with modified rules to improve aerobic endurance and use transition games wtih the appropriate work/rest ratios for their anaerobic training.


'The Game is the Greatest Coach'
'Enjoy the Game'
   
Admin
Registered: 06/25/08
Posts: 3019
Location: Calgary, Canada
By: Likes:
   

Great information Kai ! Thanks for the post. You also seem to have allot of knowledge in this area.

I agree with you and Tom ( Dean also) Over working players has a negative affect on their ability to learn and function properly when their energy systems have been depleted.

Am I correct in saying that if continued , over working , poor work to rest ratio , will affect their muscle memory ?

Anyone have a brief comment on muscle memory and how it affects young players ability's to learn ?

Thanks
RK

10 posts :: Page 1 of 1